Feeling Safe: The Foundation of Secure Attachment

speaker-1: Hi there. Michael.

speaker-0: Hello. Hello, Michael. I'm Michael too.

speaker-1: we're back.

speaker-0: So I am excited to finally be drinking wine. Because it's

speaker-1: Are you? Because tired of the cocktails.

speaker-0: so my first love. And it's simple and doesn't put much responsibility or taxing on you, Michael, who keeps making incredible cocktails for our cocktail therapy podcast.

speaker-1: Yeah, sometimes you just need an easy an easy win.

speaker-0: Yes. And also sometimes you need a drink after your cocktail.

speaker-1: True. I I don't know. do you do you drink a cocktail before dinner and wine with dinner?

speaker-0: Yes, that's our s historical standard.

speaker-1: And by our do you mean the elite? yeah.

speaker-0: I met me and my wife of thirty-five years. Yes. We well f before we ever drank cocktails, we were drinking wine before dinner and during dinner and after dinner. But then as we discovered that we could make cocktails at home,

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: it became a pre-dinner drink and then wine with dinner.

speaker-1: Yeah. I still haven't progressed into the elite category. So if I'm going out to dinner, I usually get a a cocktail at the bar or right before dinner. And I'll order because I don't know wine that well. I've been to a couple of wine tastings. We've been to Napa and stuff, but I still don't know wine really well. why are you giggling?

speaker-0: I don't know why. But I've been to Napa and Italy. And but

speaker-1: In Italy. I'm pretentious. It's fine. It's fine.

speaker-0: not elite.

speaker-1: no, I'm not

speaker-0: That's right. That wasn't a question. I was just stating things.

speaker-1: I'm agreeing. Okay. So but I'll order a cocktail with dinner. I know. and I usually don't finish it with dinner. Agreed. Because I get full.

speaker-0: These are true stories. I watch his cocktail sit there all through dinner, feeling a little codependently distressed.

speaker-1: Yeah, so I worry.

speaker-0: Are is he not having a good time? Did he not like the food? Did we choose the wrong restaurant?

speaker-1: No, no, it's usually all great. I'm just usually full. And my wife usually gets upset with me. She was like, do not order a drink. And I'm like, no, I'll tonight I'm fine. I'm good. And then I'm not

speaker-0: This is the night I'll drink it.

speaker-1: I'll drink it. And I don't. so I can drink several drinks before dinner, but if I only have one drink before dinner and then dinner comes, I'm done. All right. This is riveting information, everyone wants to know. but I'm I'm not elite as I want to be.

speaker-0: In some. And so what are we drinking, Michael?

speaker-1: Well, you should talk about what we're drinking. Okay. Yeah.

speaker-0: So we're bring or we're drinking a Chardonnay from my preferred region that would be California. In this big region.

speaker-1: Sorry, was that judging?

speaker-0: It's critical. Edgy with a tone like you haven't eaten all day, but you have.

speaker-1: And me some nuggies. That's fine.

speaker-0: you I mean I'm I'm sort of just saying all of California is my preferred region as opposed to any other part of the world.

speaker-1: Over France, over Italy.

speaker-0: Oregon, Washington, South Africa, Argentina. Yeah. Or soon to Australia. yeah, or Australia. that's kidding.

speaker-1: Wow, for those who listen to us in Australia, we apologize.

speaker-0: That's right. And I do love me at Kim Crawford. Savion Blanc. Huh.

speaker-1: huh.

speaker-0: so this is Chardonnay from Sonoma. You've been there, Michael. I've

speaker-1: Happen.

speaker-0: never actually been to Sonoma. Nope.

speaker-1: Crazy talk. you're just a few hours away.

speaker-0: Well, more than that, but yeah. Russian River we honeymooned in. Mm-hmm. But never made it over to Sonoma. Or Napa. Yeah, so this is a Sonoma Chardonnay Amici is the label. Mm-hmm. A lovely Italian name. And one of the things I love, not just I like the wine, but I love the description. a wine created by friends for friends. I know, love that heart

speaker-1: Attachment.

speaker-0: anyways 2023 Chardonnay.

speaker-1: Nice. Yeah. Thanks for bringing it. It's it really is delightful.

speaker-0: Is he gonna pick it up? We'll see.

speaker-1: I can't see the port anyway.

speaker-0: All right. So we are gonna do some unpacking as we do.

speaker-1: huh.

speaker-0: We like to introduce something and then unpack it. Right. Break it down.

speaker-1: right and so last last session last podcast everything's a session therapist

speaker-0: It's so hard to not call sessions.

speaker-1: our our last podcast focused on the five core conditions that support the development of secure attachment yeah and so we're gonna break it down by just talking about the first core right on this podcast yeah

speaker-0: But let's review

speaker-1: okay let's yeah

speaker-0: What are the five?

speaker-1: And go, Michael.

speaker-0: All right. They are felt safety or protection.

speaker-1: Yeah, right. Safety and protection.

speaker-0: They are feeling seen and known. So good. Or attunement. Mm-hmm. they

speaker-1: we're doing a quiz right now. I have the cheat sheet and Michael's going blind. He's doing really well.

speaker-0: They are feeling soothed. That may be number four or five. Feeling soothed, comforted. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Am I right? Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: feeling valued. And that's when caregivers express delight. Value

speaker-1: Value supported. Yeah.

speaker-0: supported, encouraged. And then the fifth, I don't know. Do you know it?

speaker-1: I don't

speaker-0: let me pull up my cheat sheet in T minus. It was close. What did I miss? Okay.

speaker-1: But for good measure, let's just run through those again.

speaker-0: yeah. Okay.

speaker-1: So as a review, the the five conditions.

speaker-0: f felt safety, protection

speaker-1: Number one. Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: that the par caregivers are providing. Two feeling seen and known, which is about caregiving that is attuned. felt comfort, which is parents caregiving that is soothing and reassuring. Number four is feeling valued, which is when caregiving has characterized by expressed delight. And number five, felt support for their best self, which is all that unconditional support and encouragement.

speaker-1: Nice. Yeah. I r I look forward to breaking it down. and I think an interesting thing we're probably gonna run into is a difference of these five core components versus my gosh, it just left me. gentle parenting.

speaker-0: yeah.

speaker-1: that there there is a a key difference keen difference in gentle parenting, that kind of catchphrase that gets thrown around a lot. Yep. And secure developing of secure attachment.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: I look forward to seeing how that interweaves eventually. Yep. but tonight we're gonna start on the first one. Which is that felt sense of safety.

speaker-0: Yeah, and maybe even one more thing to say about all five. There is a way in which as we break down each one, we are gonna be dipping our toes in using language that involve the other four. Because these aren't exactly neat and entirely contained separate kinds of experiences or qualities or conditions. They really overlap and they influence one another.

speaker-1: yeah, I can appreciate that, that it's not linear, it's not clean, concise. Yep. So we'll be interweaving some of the the phrases, terms.

speaker-0: Yep.

speaker-1: But in the very first core condition, it's talking about the felt safety, which isn't just about fee being safe. It's about feeling safe in your nervous system. in your

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: body. And as we've talked about in the very first episodes that the true science of attachment is really the observation and the study of the first eighteen to twenty-four months of life. Yeah. And so as we start this conversation, that the felt safety and feeling safe within the nervous system is really us talking about the development of that. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yep, these repeated experiences across this particular period of time where we're where no one's gonna have conscious memories of these kinds of experiences. They're gonna have the residual kind of memories of as a result of what this period of time was like as a five year old, six year old, eight year old, twelve year old. That's

speaker-1: Forty-three year old.

speaker-0: the case may be. Yeah. but at the core, yeah, w these five core conditions are about the conditions that are occurring during those first third trimester to the third year, three to three, if we can think of it that way. Okay. To

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: be broad or the first couple years of life. Yes.

speaker-1: Yeah, so and and with that as we talk about this, we want you and I we talked about we to be clear and set the expectations up. We're gonna be talking about desired parenting strategies and qualities. that doesn't mean we're expecting or believe that there actually is a perfect parent out there. Yeah. we have all fallen short.

speaker-0: Sorry. Not there

speaker-1: Sorry. Conditioning back to the days.

speaker-0: is no such thing as a perfect parent. There's no such thing as a perfect life. and security of attachment does not ever imply perfect parenting.

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: And parents can be so hyper critical, hyperjudgmental, self-conscious about their parental failures that they maybe overestimate the impact of some of their failures. yet nevertheless, parents do struggle to adequately create these five conditions. And that just means something happens to you in your own childhood and across your lifetime that when it came time to be parents, you just hadn't quite figured out and sorted through and healed and repaired all of you. And so you weren't able to provide all five of these core conditions. but Good for you for listening to this. Good for you for engaging in any of the healing practices, including psychotherapy. irrespective of if you have kids or not, or irrespective if your kids are young. This could be helpful to you and your adult children.

speaker-1: Right. And one thing I'm always gonna emphasize is it's never too late for repair.

speaker-0: Never.

speaker-1: and so that that's part of the work is understanding yourself. which includes understanding your limitations. but yeah, there's there's room for repair. So as we talk about these things, this is not an indictment, this is not a judgment of anyone. it's it's just an observation of these things would help produce help develop security of attachment within a a child.

speaker-0: Yeah, and and I am characterologically a little sterner. Uh-huh. It's not might, they do. These

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: really just are the conditions. As best as we know from our collective science. This is the prototype of how to parent. And to deviate from that is to then to deviate from ideal parenting. Period. Just straight up. no need to

speaker-1: I have a feeling people aren't feeling safe right now.

speaker-0: Well, that's and if that's true, right? That is a great data point for you to A get your ass into some therapy and work on your security of attachment in the world because this information is not inherently threatening. And it is inherently here to inform, to guide, to instruct, to support you. And if you experience that as threatening, it's likely an indication of this first core condition

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: was not entirely met in your development.

speaker-1: Okay. Yeah. So let's dive in. So we're not gonna pussyfoot around. Which is funny, I looked pussyfoot up this week.

speaker-0: really? That's weird.

speaker-1: And it comes from how a cat walks around. lightly, delicately, solidly. Yeah. Yeah. Its origins.

speaker-0: Look at Michael being a little cat.

speaker-1: I I am a pussy footer.

speaker-0: I am not.

speaker-1: I have to work on that. Yeah. It's likely due to my insecure attachment. and we'll talk about that later. The but this first one, the felt safety. Yeah, again, it's not just about being safe, it's about feeling safe within your nervous system, within your body. so even if someone grows up in a home that looks stable from the outside, if there's unpredictability, if there's shaming, if there's emotional withdrawal. the infant's nervous system gets coded for threat.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: and so that and that can take on many forms, obviously unpredictability, shaming, or emotional withdrawal. And you and I were talking about earlier, like what does it look like to actually shame an infant? Because I don't think there's many people out there just going, shame

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: and ringing the bell to their infant.

speaker-0: Uh-huh.

speaker-1: so Let let's break that down a little bit. Of what what would shaming look like of an invent? Is there anything that comes to mind for

speaker-0: Whether the parent caregivers are conscious of feeling this or not, it's it can still be felt in their body and thus communicated to the infant in these nonverbal w and sometimes behavioral or facial gesture kinds of ways. When a parent is disgusted which is one of the core emotions, not to inside out Pixar. one and two. when a when a when a when a caregiver is disgusted by any sort of need that the the infant is having, the need to have their diaper changed, the need to be soothed or comforted or reassured, or the need to be played with, or the need to have some physical proximity or a any sort of need. If if the parent is disgusted by those needs 'cause they find it repulsive, dirty, gross, they find it taxing and annoying, that feeling of disgust of exacerb exacerbation, kind of frustration, disgust, will register in an infant's nervous system as shame.

speaker-1: Right. So it's not that it's as if the infant understands the word ooh gross. but they the nervous system does, it feels it.

speaker-0: That's right. The nervous system does. Yes, because it's a core emotion. The the infant is already prepared to understand what that emotion is. And over time with repeated kinds of those experiences, the infant develops a sense of themselves as shameful.

speaker-1: Yeah. Well, and that's where when it talks about the idea of unpredictability, I think here it it's almost a flip on that is that there is a scanning for predictability. If every time I do this I get disgust, then I learn to shut this part down. I turn this part off. Yes. so if I have needs to be changed. and you're disgusted, revolted, and I feel that and it happens over and over and over again. The infant learns to shut down needs. I don't reveal my needs.

speaker-0: Well, that's what some infants do.

speaker-1: Sure. What do other infants do, Michael? Slinging their poop?

speaker-0: Some and yeah, some infants learn to get real loud with those needs and have trouble eventually emotionally regulating. So so you were describing the the the infant that's gonna eventually learn to be over regulated, as opposed to some infants later will learn to be under regulated.

speaker-1: Right. So look at there. We have dismissive. Preoccupied already coming alive.

speaker-0: Yes, exactly.

speaker-1: I found another example of baby shaming because I had to look it up. I'm like, I really had couldn't picture it. Yep. And then when I saw this example, I'm like, yeah. there it is. Yep. it says, a baby starts to cry, perhaps because they're hungry or overstimulated. Instead of responding with curiosity or calm reassurance, the caregiver sighs loudly, rolls their eyes, and says with irritation. Ugh, again, you're so dramatic. You were just fine a minute ago. That resonated so well inside me. I was like, It's so it's these subtle things. Yeah. It's it's partly the exhaustion of the pa of what parenting or caregiving requires. Yeah. and so it's not necessarily this malicious planned shaming.

speaker-0: No, no.

speaker-1: It's just it's this tired, exhausted life and my gosh, you need me again. Again? Yeah. But that gets coded within the baby's brain and body. which they're they're reliant on nonverbal cues. Yeah. Right. And so they're picking up on this disgust, this annoyance, this withdraw.

speaker-0: And it codes as it is not safe to bring these needs to a person so directly so unfiltered. I've got to comport somehow one way or another. I'll either do that in an entangled kind of way or I'll do that in a dismissive shutdown kind of way. but it's not safe to f to need

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: one way or another.

speaker-1: So again, this is a way to talk about parenting. If you're not gonna get it right, there can be days you're exhausted and this just happens.

speaker-0: Absolutely. And the learning curve of things. I and as you reminded me of the because I I tell the story often of I I vividly remember thinking to myself with my first child when they seemed quite hungry about eleven AM. I remember thinking, but I already fed you today. As if There's some sort of maybe dog that's fed once a day or Yeah, that's that's

speaker-1: I was fine on a handful of nuts.

speaker-0: exactly. That's exactly. Exactly.

speaker-1: Exactly.

speaker-0: And of course, as you were noting, it's also the felt burden that it's not just that you're hungry, but that you need me to feed you. that is part of that disgust, shaming interchange between a caregiver and an infant.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: And so th my kid was learning in that moment that it may not be safe to be hungry with dad. It may not be safe to bring his needs because he's gonna get met with an unsafe kind of feeling of disgust or exacerbation or frustration. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, and so if what this first core condition is talking about is that we need a felt sense of safety and it needs to be predictable. So it needs to be on repeat.

speaker-0: Yes. Consistent predictable, consistent. Not perfect. Not a hundred percent of the time. Yes.

speaker-1: But perceivable. I could perceive that if I have a need you'll meet it. Yes. I won't be rejected by it, I won't be you won't be disgusted.

speaker-0: Yeah, it'll it'll be held safely within you, so that you then don't in return act in a way that is unsafe toward me.

speaker-1: Right. That's and they make another point. and when I say they, it's Brown and Elliot.

speaker-0: Particular that we're often referencing. Referencing right now.

speaker-1: that it it's not theoretical. that your body needs to actually know you're safe. It's not that you just need to be told you're safe. Like you need to feel that sense of safety. Yep. I get this within the couples dynamic all the time. It's like they're saying, look, you're you're safe. I love you.

speaker-0: Yeah, with that tone, with the rapidness.

speaker-1: And it's like, why don't you understand? it's it's they can understand, but they can't feel it.

speaker-0: Sure.

speaker-1: And that's the big problem. That's that's the disconnection between them. It's the insecurity that exists.

speaker-0: I will always remember my mom yelling across a room in some heated fight, well into my adulthood, like in my 30s. And she's yelling, I'm sorry, in this like angry tone. And it's just like the the complete disconnect. I knew that she was sorry, truly. I I I actually believed her.

speaker-1: Uh-huh.

speaker-0: in no way did my body feel That she was sorry and feel safe in the sorry. I've my my body felt frightened as I'm being yelled at and screamed at. Yeah. and so yeah, it's not, it's not a theoretical safety, it's a keen valuing of the subjectivity of the infant. It doesn't matter what you think you're doing, it matters how it's landing in the infant.

speaker-1: Right. If they are unsoothed,

speaker-0: Yep.

speaker-1: there's a sign that it is not

speaker-0: That's right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: So which moves us on to another key component of this is predictability and non-reactivity from caregivers. And that is what ends up building trust. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah. Can I trust that when I bring my needs to my caregivers, are they gonna respond in that receptive way? tell me more. I'm not quite understanding what you're feeling. what is it that you're needing? Right.

speaker-1: I think you just hit on actually with that question right there. What is it you're needing? That it's not about perfection. It's not about you have have the exact answer and the exact right tone, language, and experience. Right

speaker-0: Right off the bat.

speaker-1: off the bat. But it's inter interjecting it's living with a sense of curiosity that that helps facilitate this. It helps pr it helps you be a predictable person. If you can constantly Frequently respond with curiosity. Yeah. that would help build this, I think.

speaker-0: Sure. And and another example is just maybe like real real talk here. So you you have an infant who is crying for whatever reason, because they're hungry, they need their diaper changed, they're uncomfortable, they're gassy, and they they're maybe they're in the carrier, they're in their crib, they're somewhere safe. And you as the caregiver are are having just the most explosive of diarrhea and you are in your bathroom just not having a good go at it.

speaker-1: Letting it rip.

speaker-0: Letting it rip or having it rip you, whether you're letting it or not, as the case sometimes is. And so you're not there.

speaker-1: I'm not disgusted by the way. Not disgusted. It's okay that you're a human.

speaker-0: So appreciate that. Everybody poops. Everybody eats. Everybody poops. So the reality is, is I'm not responding to my child when my child needs me. It's because I am soiling myself. I am pre I am otherwise occupied. And it's a kind of I can't get there immediately. Right. So the child is feeling some distress of I've ex I've expressed I need you and you're not here. I'm not gonna get it right perfectly in the very moment because in this case I'm a little sick to my stomach. so I'm delayed getting there is one example of not getting it right immediately.

speaker-1: Right. The important part of that is that eventually you're there.

speaker-0: That's right. And and and not only eventually there, but the quality by which when I do get there, I am still a safe receptiveness to their need as opposed to being

speaker-1: Can't you see I'm sick?

speaker-0: That's right, shaming them. Right. or so frazzled and scared that the fact that they were there alone crying for five seconds, I'm not a safe person. I'm not safe to the infant. That's not gonna register as safety. 'Cause I am frazzled or I am scared myself or

speaker-1: Yeah. It's so fascinating. Just the the co regulation of the nervous system. Yeah. That if your nervous system is not regulated or attempting to regulate

speaker-0: That's right.

speaker-1: as you're approaching, the baby is gonna feel that.

speaker-0: That's right.

speaker-1: And now you'd have two c unregulated nervous systems which creates chaos. Yes. And unsafety. Yes. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yep. A a a a sense of unsafety in in the child. Yeah. And again, it's not about that one time that that happened. This

speaker-1: Right. This is on repeat.

speaker-0: is across time, across years.

speaker-1: Yeah, so it's about establishing that predictability.

speaker-0: Yes.

speaker-1: Yeah. So it's a one off, a two off, even a a five off, like you're gonna get sick throughout the years.

speaker-0: that's right.

speaker-1: But those the times you're not sick and when you are sick, can you can you come back? Right.

speaker-0: Yep.

speaker-1: So you're you're still building predictability. That's right. Of it I will be here.

speaker-0: And I'm eventually gonna get it. I'm eventually gonna provide you the the protection that you were needing. Right.

speaker-1: Yep. Okay. Let's move on to a third point. trauma disrupts the protective system

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: and replaces it with the vigilance. This I think we're moving a little more into directly speaking about the established attachment classification.

speaker-0: Yeah, once once attachment is established as a neurological system that development is sort of over in that regards.

speaker-1: Right. And so now we're we're working with what we got.

speaker-0: Yes, great way of saying it, yeah.

speaker-1: and so when I when I'm reading about this, I I kind of over-identify maybe or identify with it. when safety is absent or inconsistent, children learn to scan for danger, not connection. and what that may look like a response to that is hypervigilance, shutting down, or even people pleasing. It's these adapt to ad adaptive ways in which we try to find our way back. to safety. to make the to make the dynamic between child and parent safe again. predictable again. and I find that within my own life, in my development, of always being the mature kid. I was always the kid that like even at daycare, I hung out with the caregivers. I didn't go off and play that much. I always wanted to be in the gossip. I always wanted to hear the tea. But and oftentimes I'd be congratulated or spoken highly of as Michael is so mature.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: but what that really meant is driving that behavior

speaker-0: What what was driving that behavior?

speaker-1: Right was my insecurity. my hypervigilance to be seen one way, to be in a s to be seen that way secured my wantedness. Perhaps my lovability or desirability. But it was a way in which I attempted to earn. But again, on the outside it just looked like, how wise this twelve year old is.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: That's all have to say about

speaker-0: Uh-huh.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: Well, I I I just had this thought as you were saying how the nervous system gets wired to scan for threat

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: rather than connection. The the whole point of the attachment system as attachment theory holds itself as an evolutionary influenced theory, that the theory of evolution The survival of the species? What's going to increase the likelihood that I'm going to survive the threatening nature of the world and grow up to be an adult to then continue to pass on my genetic code? And so we see that the attachment system is evolving in human history to scan for. relationships, scan for connections, that it is our connections or our relationships with other human beings that is gonna increase the likelihood that we are gonna be safe and thus survive. Right. And thus grow up to be an adult and pass on genetic material.

speaker-1: Jokes on my genetics.

speaker-0: And so when something tr traumatic, when there is trauma in our infancy toddlerhood, system. during these first couple of years of life should be wir wiring I cannot say it. Should be

speaker-1: Wired in a way.

speaker-0: Wired in a way, thank you, that helps us scan for relationships as sources of safety. But instead, when trauma occurs, it is wired to see relationships as possible, very possible sources of threat, as well as all the other potential sources of threat.

speaker-1: Yes. Yep.

speaker-0: And that thus will make it very challenging later in life for the adolescents or adults to accurately assess whether or not certain relationships are as safe as they are or as dangerous as they are. It it messes with, it distorts, it affects our capacity. to accurately perceive the nature of relationships, particularly around safety. And so we often will feel unsafe in safe situations and with safe people. And then we will feel safe with unsafe people in unsafe conditions.

speaker-1: Yeah, you have me living inside my mind in my own world right now, scanning. Scanning for why do I why do I see these things as safe? Why do I see these things as unsafe? because I will scan a room before I go into it. Sure. And scan of like how will I be perceived as part of what I'm scanning.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: but I also have this I feel like I'm better at it now. but in the not so distant past. I get uncomfortable with males who are very playful. when I say playful, I'm uncomfortable with the jock bros.

speaker-0: That are playful physically. I don't physically

speaker-1: Yeah, the physicality of playfulness there. and for some reason I'm scanning that as dangerous. and at the same time, I have a little bit of jealousy that I can't play that way. Or that I don't feel comfortable playing that way. so I'm not gonna ask you to analyze me right here, right now, and actually process this. but I am I am it makes me think of yeah, like this idea that if I'm scanning There's something that's registering within my attachment system that has cued me to look for danger. Yeah. and it would behoove me to look into that.

speaker-0: Yeah, no, absolutely. I an example that is very loud in my own mind about my own life. In grad school in my doctoral program, there was a mentor, teacher of mine, who I was terrified of.

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: And for all intents and purposes, people repeatedly experienced him as one of the safest people in the whole wide world. he was warm. He was kind, generous of spirit and of mind. he was also incredibly brilliant with his multiple doctorates. I think he had three. prolific author. And I was terrified to go in and speak to him, sort of like on a one-on-one. And so my mind couldn't r couldn't register him. As as safe as he actually objectively is. I felt so threatened.

speaker-1: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So but wrap it up, bring it home with that.

speaker-0: Which is, I think, an example of the way in which my own development that has all sorts of trauma from various sources, both sort of intentional trauma and unintentional trauma, both from within my family and outside my family, made it difficult for me to then accurately perceive the world. and for my body to accurately perceive the world. I knew that he was safe, but my body felt so unsafe.

speaker-1: Yeah. Which blocks you.

speaker-0: That's right. And so I wouldn't go and talk with him. And I shortchanged my life in many ways by not accessing that relationship more. That would have done me a world of good.

speaker-1: Yeah. It's all amazing. And I'm I'm really sad for you in that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Sure. It's a sad story. I'm totally over it though.

speaker-1: Totally, totally over it. Totally comfortable everywhere I go. I scan for connection, not threat or danger.

speaker-0: In in in a inverted way, I can then be unaware of just how frightening others may find me. I don't recognize that they are maybe intimidated by me or

speaker-1: Have you that before? Sorry, I don't know if people can pick up on my sass through just my voice.

speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause they they're not picking up on the facial features. Yeah, so there's these ways in which it doesn't occur to me that that I might be perceived this way. Especially historically speaking, I've tried to work on that and tried. But Yeah. Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: I think you're safe.

speaker-0: I know I'm safe and and I'm a profoundly non-judgmental person. Yeah. Yet there are these other aspects of me that Yeah. I have plenty of opinions.

speaker-1: have opinions.

speaker-0: And and it is it's this kind of bi-directional nature of I'm not good at communicating in these sort of nonverbal ways of just how safe I am. and it's not exactly a resting bitch face or a wretching resting dick face, to be less sexist about it. I don't

speaker-1: Sure.

speaker-0: know.

speaker-1: Well yes, to to maybe wrap around that is when we are dysregulated, it is hard to clearly see safety, security, and the difference in danger. It gets mixed up. but in that moment, if we're in that sense of distress, we

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: we go by what we're seeing, but that may be maybe We may not be be perceiving that correctly. Yeah.

speaker-0: Accurately.

speaker-1: Right. And therefore it it wrecks havoc in all sorts of ways. Yep. It keeps us from getting the our needs met. I don't know, it can do a lot of things, but

speaker-0: Yeah, we end up telling stories that just are not based on in any sort of fact.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Well, we made it through the first point. Yeah, did we did? Yeah. I

speaker-0: Yeah, good enough.

speaker-1: think it's it is good enough. And we will we'll continue on. I'm excited that that eventually we're gonna be moving to one of your favorite books and one of your favorite parenting strategies. Dan Siegel's and Mary Hartzell's Parenting from the Inside Out. Yeah.

speaker-0: Twenty fifth anniversary, y'all. You should read it. Big plus yep.

speaker-1: Well, or you could just listen to us. We'll give you all the good one. Cheers. Bye.